[20:58] == WPWeekly [4ac76282@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.199.98.130] has joined #wptavern [20:58] == mode/#wptavern [+o WPWeekly] by ChanServ [20:59] test [20:59] howdy [20:59] hi all [20:59] <@WPWeekly> see the Live Now button? [21:00] Yup, I'm listening [21:06] sure did! [21:06] that's the old icq sound! [21:07] yeah heard that too [21:07] yeah that'll be interesting [21:07] haha i don't know either [21:07] Sure, we could do that [21:08] I think DST bought ICQ, they also invest in facebook [21:08] good luck! [21:09] hahaha [21:10] <@WPWeekly> oops [21:10] <@WPWeekly> hit a button and it rewound the audio LOL [21:13] hahaha [21:16] <@WPWeekly> how is the audio? [21:17] <@WPWeekly> am I coming in choppy or ok? [21:17] <@WPWeekly> sounds like ryan is coming in choppy [21:17] you're coming in fine. ryan sounds fine for me as well [21:17] Am I in the wrong chat on Talkshoe? [21:17] <@WPWeekly> yes [21:17] <@WPWeekly> well [21:17] <@WPWeekly> I dont use the chat in talkshoe [21:18] Gotcha. [21:18] Sounds good on this end ... [21:18] he's good hear too [21:18] might be your net jeffro? [21:18] sounds fine here [21:19] Jeff -- he sounds good out here. [21:19] <@WPWeekly> hmm sounds pretty choppy to me [21:19] <@WPWeekly> :( [21:20] <@WPWeekly> im going to hammer my network or osmething [21:22] on that note jeffro, i'm happy to guest blog for free on wptavern if you like. i run my business on wordpress and am happy to give back for free :) [21:23] my business partner and i do meetups in brisbane and sydney for free as our way of giving back [21:24] <@WPWeekly> man this connection or something makes it hard to hear what ryan is saying [21:24] <@WPWeekly> is he really coming through clear for you guys? [21:24] yeah he's clear as a bell here [21:25] you might need to reconnect? [21:25] Jeff, he's coming in as clear as you are... Your voice is much sexier though. ;-) [21:26] <@WPWeekly> damn wonder whats wrong [21:30] WP Tavern vs. WP Candy: Round 1 [21:31] Thanks for having me on Jeff, lots of fun :) [21:32] So whats been discussed already, just tuning in now. [21:32] PressedAds so far carl [21:32] carlhancock: just PressedAds ... [21:33] Cool, I wish Ryan the best with PressedAds which is why we are one of the first advertisers. [21:34] Jeff: 80/20 [21:35] that's been talked about [21:35] and it definitely something I support [21:35] s/it/it's/ [21:36] PeteMall: You talking about 80/20? [21:36] widget enhancements [21:36] Oh .. heh. [21:37] I wouldn't be contributing if I wasn't ok with the core philosophies [21:37] and trust me I've had plenty of ideas shot down ;) [21:37] and I've been a contributor for a long time and a committer in 3.1 [21:38] I like the widget enhancements [21:38] We're off topic, Jeff. ;) [21:38] dd32: hola amigo [21:39] is there a ticket for it? [21:39] PeteMall: Afternoon [21:39] The problem is the UI. I haven't seen it done "right" yet. [21:40] Not really a good one-size-fits-all way of doing widgets... [21:40] there are a few widget enhancements coming in 3.3… this is something that can be on the road map for 3.4 if it gains traction [21:40] Indeed. Sometimes the simplest ideas sound easy but if you can't implement a good UI for that feature... it's not going to be as easy as it sounds. [21:41] and it's not going in core unless we can come up with a good workflow / ui [21:41] Thanks Carl, I appreciate the support :) [21:41] we have to understand that WP is designed and developed for the masses and it's not always a good idea to have half-baked features [21:42] PeteMall: +1 [21:42] agreed [21:42] Agreed. Not just half-baked features but also some more advanced features that are better left to plugins. [21:42] this is exactly what happened with menus when there was talk of dropping it from the release [21:43] and I think the plugin route is a good idea for new features [21:43] it gives us an aggressive release cycle and we can iterate [21:43] Core should be light and fast. It should be thought of as a core framework. Leave the specialized functionality to plugins. [21:43] not something you can do in core easily [21:44] it'll go in core once it's stable and the UI is polished [21:44] that's my opinion [21:46] i used to dev for joomla for 2 years. the most painful things with it were upgrades and above all training clients [21:46] god bless WordPress's UI :) [21:46] from Jane on twitter: we've been saying for a while that per-page widgets is on the roadmap, hopefully in 3.4 if we can make it work. Also menus fixes. [21:48] I gotta run but I'll catch this later [21:48] joomla had components and modules...that's bringing back nightmares [21:48] revamp aka "copy" [21:48] BronsonQuick: I was the head of 3rd party dev standards and guidelines for Mambo right before the fork to Joomla. [21:49] BronsonQuick: That was a pain in the ass... [21:49] Ahh interesting. You would've been in the thick of all that drama then! [21:50] BronsonQuick: I was. [21:51] Interesting comment and bit of information on the DevPress/WordCamp situation... http://wpcandy.com/reports/devpress-deal-is-against-wordcamp-guidelines#comment-187287 [21:51] Apparently the guidelines were changed after the fact. [21:52] wow... does not look good [21:54] ahh okay then. i was reading that last night before i went to bed. i guess thats the official stance on it now [21:54] updated for better clarification perhaps? [21:55] yeah looks like it [21:55] There is no "official" stance on anything until there is a WP Foundation made up of community... Until then, it's just a handful of friends from Automattic picking and choosing whatever works for THEM and not the community as a whole. [21:55] More like changing the rules in the middle of the game. The guidelines are absurd. [21:57] i've accepted some free books, plugin giveaways and subscription giveaways for our WordCamp so I guess I might have to contact those people and send them back [21:58] that's gonna be an awkward situation for me :S [21:59] Seriously? Ignore it. [21:59] Does WordCamp Central roll up their sleeves and organize your event? No. You do. [22:00] yeah it's a tough one. i don't want to step on anyones toes. [22:00] It's okay for Jane Wells to ask a brewery for free beer for WordCamp Portland. [22:00] But it's not okay for WordCamp Philly to ask DevPress for free memberships for WordCamp Philly. [22:01] It not that straight forward unfortunately, we are using the WordCamp name so we have to adhere to what they say [22:02] That's fine. But there is a double standard at play. Free beer is okay but free themes is not? [22:02] Which one is more directly relevant to a WordCamp event? The themes. [22:02] so if godaddy says that they'll give two free months of hosting to all attendees… will you be ok? [22:03] and oh they wouldn't buy a sponsorship [22:03] all the talk about lunch sponsorships and venue sponsorships is stupid [22:03] If the local WordCamp organizer approved it and thought their attendees would value it... I don't see an issue with it. [22:03] PeteMall: I'll give ANY WordCamp attendee a free copy of one of my themes. [22:04] there's a difference between you giving it away and the WordCamp endorsing it [22:04] I do think there is a blurred line, i'd like to find a way to make it work, I think it will benefit those who want to run a WordCamp in the future [22:04] if you want to use the WordCamp name then you have to play by their rules [22:04] PeteMall: Right ... it's adding value to the community members that show up... [22:04] The WordCamp Philly organizers were endorsing it. They wanted it. It was WordCamp Central that didn't. [22:04] and I've been to a ton of wordcamps and have helped organize a few as well [22:04] so I speak from experience [22:05] PeteMall: it's total bullshit, it's dumb ... WordCamp is community organized, and community run -- but it's not. It's a fuckin' farce. [22:05] if every sponsor wanted to do in-kind sponsorship, then we wouldn't have a WordCamp [22:05] let's agree to disagree? [22:05] If ever sponsor wanted an in kind sponsorship you could turn them down on their offer. [22:05] WordCamp Philly approached DevPress. [22:06] I hate it when people start attacking others personally [22:06] DevPress offered to give free memberships to any WordCamp that was interested. WordCamp Philly was interested. [22:06] PeteMall: Ever WC I've attended, I've been handed a business card, etc... Do we stop that too? Do we tell organizers to activly discourage networking between business' and customers? [22:06] and this is what happens with Jane every time there a controversy [22:06] Who's attacking anyone personally? [22:06] Pointing out something she said is attacking her? [22:06] == jorbin_ has changed nick to jorbin [22:06] FlashingCursor: there's a difference between you handing out a business card and WordCamp X endorsing you [22:07] simple as that [22:07] WordCamp Philly endorsed the DevPress offer and asked DevPress for the free giveaway. What is wrong with that? [22:08] do you think Jane has a personal stake in this? [22:08] I'm glad you think it should be opt out jeffro. We run alot of sites for clients that arent as savvy, this saves alot of time for us [22:08] yoo guys :) [22:08] do you think Jane or anyone else makes any money if DevPress or anyone else is doing a giveaway? [22:08] ptahdunbar-with-: sup my brother [22:08] meh ... done. Sorry I said anything, but, really -- it should be a community decision and not one passed forward by Jane or Matt, et al... [22:09] its' suppose to be with-helmet, darnit :) [22:09] btw… Thanks bro [22:09] Is Jane or anyone else personally effected negatively by WordCamp attendees getting a free DevPress membership? [22:09] Tina wouldn't let me ride anymore [22:09] carlhancock: where do you draw the line? [22:10] uh oh [22:10] as an organizer, I would like to just promote my business for free [22:10] how about that? [22:10] PeteMall: Wherever each individual organizer decides to draw it. [22:10] PeteMall: You let the WordCamp organizers who are busting their ass to actually organize the event draw the line and decide what is best for their event. [22:10] it's WordCamp… the foundation draws the line [22:10] they own the rights to WordCamp [22:10] I've organized camps and meetups [22:10] I'm talking from experience [22:10] so what happens when I want to promote my business as an organizer [22:11] Then the Foundation should fund them. [22:11] Oh yea they don't. [22:11] <@WPWeekly> can you hear the interview? [22:11] nope. can't hear the interview here jeffro [22:11] nope [22:11] nope [22:11] PeteMall: "WordCamps are informal, community-organized events that are put together by WordPress users like you." --WordCamp.org [22:11] <@WPWeekly> lol no interview? [22:11] Can't hear the interview either. [22:11] :( [22:11] No interview Jeff... Radio Silence. [22:11] no interview [22:11] and the foundation owns the rights to it [22:12] *crickets* [22:12] Fail. @wpweekly :p [22:12] justintadlock: for the record, I love you guys and have nothing against you [22:12] <@WPWeekly> hear it now? [22:12] any references to DevPress should really say 'any business' [22:12] I know. We're all in the community together. [22:12] nope [22:12] The foundation provides plenty of support. The donation of a registered trademark and the knowledge they provide (along with optional fiscal sponsorship) is enough. If you don't want to run a WordCamp according to the foundations rules, don't run a WordCamp. [22:13] as a WordCamp organizer, you can use the foundation account [22:13] PeteMall: An attempt was made to organize an alternative to WordCamp. Unfortunately we were threatened with being blackballed in the community if we did so. So the plan was tabled. [22:13] that's a registered non-profit organization and it helps a lot [22:13] PeteMall: That is what I mean by fiscal sponsorship [22:13] <@WPWeekly> can you hear it now? [22:13] that's good [22:13] We can hear it now. [22:13] :) [22:13] there we go [22:13] carlhancock: have you organized a WordCamp? [22:13] <@WPWeekly> I need an EPIC FAIL soundbyte [22:14] PeteMall: What does that have to do with what I just said? [22:14] WPWeekly: http://www.sadtrombone.com/ [22:14] <@WPWeekly> man my throat is parched [22:14] <@WPWeekly> I need a cohost, [22:14] <@WPWeekly> lol [22:14] isn't this about WordCamp organizer vs WordCamp foundation? [22:15] PeteMall: Yep. And you mentioned the foundation owns WordCamp. So they can dictate the rules. I said a large group of prominent WordPress companies planned on creating an alternative. They were threatened with being blackballed if they did so. [22:15] <@WPWeekly> still coming in loud and clear? [22:16] yeah the interview is fine now jeffro [22:16] <@WPWeekly> cool [22:17] I didn't like the idea of the alternative that was being organized bu the "prominent WordPress companies" and I'm not an Automattic employee [22:17] and there were plenty of others who would agree [22:17] maybe it was the community as a whole that didn't like it? [22:18] How is a WordPress conference organized by people who run WordPress related companies any different than a WordPRess conference organized by Automattic? [22:19] WordCamps are not organized by Automattic — coming from a WordCamp organizer, attendee, speaker, groupie [22:20] carlhancock: blackballed? [22:20] So WordCamp San Francisco wasn't organized by Automattic? Automattic wasn't involved in that shindig? Come on man. [22:20] one WordCamp != all WordCamps [22:20] carlhancock: was this the wordcon event? [22:21] PeteMall: I think this argument, as well as others pertaining to rules / guidelines, exist because there's a lack of "community" in community driven. Theres a small group that call it a meritocrocy, but merit isn't decided by the community that drives things, it's decided by those few that currently have control. There's a ton of favoritism at the top, and decisions are based upon the [22:21] like-mindedness of those people rather than the whole community. The 80/20 philosophy that is so strictly adhered to in coding decisions, should be adhered to when rules and guidelines are being developed. [22:21] So what is wrong with a non-WordCamp conference focused on WordPress? It wasn't companies organizing it. It was individuals that make their living with WordPress that were organizing it. [22:22] do we really wanna do this? [22:22] FlashingCursor: you are forgetting the vocal minority philosophy that also drives the project [22:22] organize it and don't call it wordcon [22:22] Ahhh yea there you go. [22:22] I don't wanna get in to the WordCon debate again [22:23] I made it all the way to being a committer and I don't always see eye to eye with the leads [22:23] how did that happen? [22:23] FlashingCursor: ^^ [22:23] PeteMall: that happened becouse you actually contributed to the project [22:24] jorbin: define contribute. [22:24] <@WPWeekly> ptah dunbar: At the hospital, bored, so why not whip out the ipad and dive into core [22:24] <@WPWeekly> lol [22:24] FlashingCursor: http://core.trac.wordpress.org/search?q=props+petemall&noquickjump=1&changeset=on [22:25] FlashingCursor: I'm not a yes-man to Matt or Jane or anyone else… the point is you can rise to the top if you put in the effort [22:25] <@WPWeekly> its the meritocracy argument :P [22:25] PeteMall: but is code a requirment? [22:26] I understand that Matt started the project and he'll always have more say than me and I'm ok with it [22:26] jorbin: ^^ [22:26] <@WPWeekly> rise to the top so you become a parent and can say NO NO NO :) [22:26] FlashingCursor: I was already doing a lot before I started writing code for WordPress [22:26] <@WPWeekly> this is our mini guideline talk [22:26] PeteMall: Like? [22:26] so becoming a committer == you need to write a lot of code [22:27] How is code committer == community stakeholder? [22:27] FlashingCursor: it is the quickest way to make yourself a valued (and thus listened to) member of the community. [22:27] influencing decisions == show leadership and contribute in any way you can [22:27] code committer is definitely a stakeholder [22:27] FlashingCursor: if you're not building it, you're not a stakeholder. Pigs vs. chickens and all that jazz [22:27] same was as the other influencers who don't code [22:28] no committer = no WordPress [22:28] no companies/individuals making money on top of it [22:28] jorbin: Sorry man, but WP wouldn't exist without the users. No matter how many code contributors you throw at it. [22:28] I'm confused as to how this is relevant to the conversation. [22:28] carlhancock: agree... [22:29] carlhancock: it always goes to this when we bring up meritocracy -- my bad. [22:29] FlashingCursor: And users wouldn't have WP without code contributors. It doesn't matter how many kittens you throw at the keyboard. [22:30] That is why Users are the focus of WordPress and decisions are made to benifit them [22:30] jorbin: Yes, but each needs a voice and everything from features to wordcamps and guidelines are dictated by those that can only get to the top by coding. [22:31] WordPress wouldn't exist if people didn't write the code to create WordPress. That's a given. Nobody is debating the great work the core contributors do. Nor Matt's role as the project lead making the hard decisions. [22:32] <@WPWeekly> Thanks all for coming out to the party, parched throat but made it through [22:32] It's the community related decisions, not the WordPress core development related decisions, that are the ones that many people find absurd. The DevPress issue being the most recent example. [22:32] thanks for doing another show jeffro. great to have you back on air [22:33] FlashingCursor: Yes. Becouse one is committed and the other is only involved. [22:33] <@WPWeekly> lol bronson hope people can put up with my voice talking for so long [22:33] Yes, thanks Jeff. I was lost for a while without my WP Weekly. I'm glad it's back. [22:33] <@WPWeekly> in the near future, hope to break up the show with more interviews [22:33] <@WPWeekly> short interviews regarding the news stories of the week so it's kind of like having a co host and not so much talking lol [22:34] Yeah, great to have you back Jeffro. Its been a long time between drinks :) [22:34] <@WPWeekly> Well, it's a success as long as the show talked about WordPress [22:35] <@WPWeekly> I'll have to download the show and do a little post formatting and will upload the edited version [22:35] jorbin: Would love to have a chat one day about all this over a scotch or 3 ... Frankly, I think you're a little to "inside" the situation to see much of whats going on from the perspective of the community as a whole. Community members are surely commited and not just involved. [22:36] <@WPWeekly> is anyone using an IRC client that has a log of this chat from near the beginning of the show?