Paying to download GPL themes

[Ryan]

@greenshady - I think a lot of people are just realising that they're rapidly going to be blocked out by the WP community if they don't go GPL. There's a lot of value in promotion from the likes of WordPress.org, WPTavern.com etc. which you can't get anymore without going GPL.

[adii]

@Adii

Not to put you on the spot or anything (okay, maybe just a little), but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this Twitter conversation: :)

http://twitter.com/themescloset/status/2207129625
http://twitter.com/adii/status/2207208283

Simple answer... :) Going GPL doesn't mean I have to become a cheerleader in promoting that people can modify AND resell or redistribute our themes. And I don't think that I'm not fully embracing by saying that. That's a reality and one we were totally aware of before making the decision to license with GPL, but again I don't have to be a cheerleader for GPL.

Then, I just want to say that we didn't go GPL just because it was the vogue thing to do. We wouldn't have gone GPL if it didn't make sense from a business / strategic perspective.

And then I'd love to listen to any suggestions of how we can more fully embrace the GPL within WooThemes. Obviously this would need to stay consistent with our current business model, but I'm open to discuss this! :)

[dstrojny]

Really appreciate you sharing your thoughts Dan, Adii, Ryan, Justin

I think we can all agree that the sleazy/unethical sites are not in the spirit of WordPress. But, how can anyone be upset if they state clearly in their license "You may convey verbatim copies of the Program’s source code as you receive it"? Are we essentially saying: I grant you this freedom, but if you choose to use this freedom you are a bad/unethical person?

The bottom line is people like this will always exist, but they will hardly ever stick around or make an impact. The benefits for the WordPress community and your business (which depends on that community) of embracing the GPL far outweigh the costs of these people’s actions.

@Adii

I completely agree it would make no sense for you to "encourage" this kind of behavior. Keep in mind this thread was not meant as an attack, instead an avenue to discuss something that I think needs to be discussed. In hindsight, I can see how that original post by Alex referencing distributing your themes for free was not the best way of bringing this up, and I apologize for quoting it here.

[adii]

@Drew - No offence was taken. :)

I think we can all agree that the sleazy/unethical sites are not in the spirit of WordPress. But, how can anyone be upset if they state clearly in their license "You may convey verbatim copies of the Program’s source code as you receive it"? Are we essentially saying: I grant you this freedom, but if you choose to use this freedom you are a bad/unethical person?

I think it all comes down to the motives of the person that use GPL'ed products / code. And I agree that there are bad people around that'll abuse someone else's rights for their own benefit; irrespective of the GPL even existing.

I'm just saying that by adopting the GPL, I'm not opening up my business to every crook out there. And yes, there may be no right or wrong for me to judge those "crooks" by, but that's why I believe in karma and the democracy of a community / ecosystem, as I then don't have to judge anyone.

Obviously I have my opinions and will continue to have them should anyone do something with WooThemes GPL code that I don't agree with. Along with going GPL though, I've made the decision that my opinion in those situations won't really matter as people would be legally entitled to do that. But again... I'm definitely not gonna sit around and pretend that I like or promote that, as that would go against who I am as a person.

The government is also just implementing the tax law, but I don't necessarily have to agree with the amount of tax I pay and I sure as hell am gonna voice that frustration every now and again! :) Dunno if that illustrates my point here!?

[Cristi]

It's just amazing how much publicity this hole thing brought to the major players on the theme market. No ad campaign can beat this.

"Spirit of WordPress", "unethical", "freedom" are just words at the end of the day. In retrospect this debate dose more good to Wordpress and the community then all the GPL code all these themes combined!

Really now... everyone knows about Wordpress... even technically chalaged people :)

A good debate proves how healthy a comunity really is... So I sugest we continue this debate, go on writing about "ethical vs. unethical", trash/ignore the ones that really abuse the system and try and educate our users through conversation, support and inspiration (since this is what they are really paying for).

And yes... since all these themes are GPL I just might use them for inspiration and reimplement parts of their code into new and exciting ways. If you ask me this is what it's all about at the end of the day!

[andrea_r]

I think even more it showed how some of the bigger players have handled this - most with grace, and that goes a lot further than sales or catchy news.

[greenshady]

@Adii

Thanks for the response.

We wouldn't have gone GPL if it didn't make sense from a business / strategic perspective.

Good point.

I also saw moving completely toward the GPL as a good business move. If anything, it's been the best move I've made, especially with the type of site I run.

[ianstewart]

I thought I'd chime in here for posterity's sake, summarizing my rant I let loose on Twitter and, once again, trying to agree with everyone while disagreeing at the same time.

Some points to consider:

1. Redistributing unmodified GPL code over the internet is not sleazy nor does it make one an ass. Redistributing unmodified GPL code is what the GPL is all about—even if the author of that code is charging for it and depending on that income.

2. Redistributing unmodified GPL code over the internet is pointless and stupid. If you're doing it as a matter of free open source principles, sure, I could see that—but you're muddying up the web. It doesn't add any value to the code and unless you plan on keeping up with updates to that code you're actually doing everyone who sees that redistributed code a huge disservice. Way to go.

3. I say "everyone who sees that redistributed code" because that will be a small amount of people. A small amount of people who will be rightfully wary of downloading that code. The vast majority of people will choose to download that code from the original author. Anyone want to start downloading WordPress from "www.crazywpdownloadsite.com"? I thought so. Remember that "trust" and "authority" are huge things on the web. People selling GPL WordPress Themes: stop worrying about this.

4. Now that we know that people redistributing unmodified GPL WordPress Themes over the internet are stupid we need to recognize how awesome it is that people can modify GPL WordPress Themes and redistribute them online. Theme-sellers: this is how you got started selling themes. Every single one of you. Remember when you were nervously trying to lock up the code for your first theme options pages behind a restrictive licence? The code that you essentially copy-pasted from the same 2 online tutorials I and countless others did? I'm looking at all of you. Anyway, where would you be if that code wasn't given to you in the first place? Where would you be if you didn't fork the Default Theme? Or Sandbox? Or Classic Theme? Where would you be if Matt didn't fork b2? Don't worry about people forking your code. The freedom to redistribute modified code is incredibly awesome and, no exaggeration, is quite literally making the world a better place.

[chriswallace]

Ian is right. People who redistribute unmodified GPL code while trying to take all the credit or make money off it are stupid and will ultimately fail. Keep on doing what you do. Sell your themes. Make a living. Stop defending yourselves. Don't feel guilty about making money from things you've worked your whole lives for. It's not only your livelihood, it's something you love to do, and in order to keep doing it, you have to be able to pay the bills and feed your family (or your giant puppy, Adii). Going GPL with all my themes is the best thing I ever did for myself in the WordPress community.

[nathanrice]

<metaphor>
Let's say a random person sees me and my wife walking down the street and he decides to call my wife a name that I find offensive and hurtful. That guy is sleazy. He's also completely within his rights under the first amendment of the US Constitution. But he's an idiot, and has no friends. So, I keep walking and ignore him. He has no influence, and by ignoring him, I keep his influence low.

Let's say the Ashton Kutcher sees me and my wife walking down the street and he decides to post a tweet calling my wife a name I find offensive and hurtful. That guy is sleazy too, and also within his legal rights. But because he has influence, I'm far more likely to fight him and use my influence to convince as many people as I can that he is sleazy and shouldn't be supported.

It doesn't matter if your motivation is to hurt me, or if it is just to "exercise your rights", it's a sleazy thing to do.
</metaphor>

If you are a "nobody" and you post commercial GPL themes for free download, your sleazy. Doesn't matter if you're doing it to hurt our business, or if you're doing just because you can. You're still sleazy. But relatively harmless.

If you're Alex King and you post commercial GPL themes for free download, your sleazy, and you're hurting our business … and we have a problem. Admittedly not a legal problem, but a problem nonetheless.

Don't make us all regret adopting the GPL. You don't have to be our biggest fans, but don't actively try to hurt our business. That IS sleazy.