One Peeved Off Theme Maker

[hallsofmontezuma]

Andrea, you're absolutely correct in that have x number of WordPress blogs on WPMU doesn't make additional instances of a theme. Well said.
To add to that, signed up on someone's WPMU and using one of the offered themes isn't distribution. You're using the theme. It isn't being distributed to you.
We're all using the WP Tavern theme, its copy of MySQL, Apache, and Linux (all three of which are open source). None of those have been distributed to us.
For instance, Jeff doesn't have to release the source code for his theme. However, if he ever decides to release it in any manner, whether for a charge or at no charge, he's now distributing the theme, which would require him to release it under the GPL.

[chipbennett]

Sorry, you're incorrect.

In WPMU, you have one instance of one theme. (well, two themes - default and classic in a default install.) If 100 users select the default theme, you still have one copy of one theme. You still have that one theme in use by all. They can't access the source code, they can't get their own copy to take with them if they move. Just like every member on this forum is using the Tavern Style but is free to change it at any time.

Have you ever set up a WPMU system? Setting up another blog on the site does NOT make another instance of WP. It does not make copies of the theme for each blog.

Just to further the example, even if I have 10,000 blogs on a WPMU system, I still have 1 instance of Apache, 1 instance of MySQL running, 1 install of WPMU.

And the only reason I'm pushing the issue is to clarify that WPMU does not have many instances of many themes.

Why do you keep going back to the forum analogy? It is completely inapplicable.

The main problem I have with your argument is that, while on a forum, all users use the same theme, not all users of WPMU use the same theme. User A's blog might use theme 1, while User B's blog uses theme 2. Therefore, your assertion:

You still have that one theme in use by all.

...is verifiably false.

So, if on WPMU we don't have one theme, in use by all, what do we have?

We have several themes, used by several people.

Setting aside any conclusions that may or may not be made based upon that statement, can we at least agree that it is true?

[chipbennett]

Andrea, you're absolutely correct in that have x number of WordPress blogs on WPMU doesn't make additional instances of a theme. Well said.
To add to that, signed up on someone's WPMU and using one of the offered themes isn't distribution. You're using the theme. It isn't being distributed to you.
We're all using the WP Tavern theme, its copy of MySQL, Apache, and Linux (all three of which are open source). None of those have been distributed to us.
For instance, Jeff doesn't have to release the source code for his theme. However, if he ever decides to release it in any manner, whether for a charge or at no charge, he's now distributing the theme, which would require him to release it under the GPL.

So tell me: what makes WPMU different from WP?

If the difference isn't that WPMU creates several blogs, each with unique data and unique themes, then what is it?

[hallsofmontezuma]

WPMU is pretty much the same as WP, only that it allows you to create another blog using the same files, but with its own database tables. wordpress.com uses WordPress MU.


Keep in mind, you can have a WPMU installation with only one theme available, or with 1000 themes available. A forum could theoretically allow users to choose which theme they'd like to see. Neither of these situations qualify as distribution. Also, you can allow people to register on your WP site as whatever user level you want, even giving them full access to the administrative interface if you so desire. This still doesn't count as distribution because they aren't receiving a copy of any GPL software, they're only using it.

Right now, we're using MySQL, but Jeff never actually distributed it to us. Technically, it wasn't even distributed to him unless he set up his own server.

For further clarification, the GPL no longer uses the term "distribution," as they've discovered that in some countries, the legal definition of distribution isn't the same as in the US. They now use the term convey, with the following definition:

To “convey” a work means any kind of propagation that enables other parties to make or receive copies. Mere interaction with a user through a computer network, with no transfer of a copy, is not conveying.

When you sign up for a blog on someone's WPMU (or wordpress.com), you aren't receiving a copy.

If Jeff gives you the admin info for wptavern.com/forum, he isn't distributing anything to you, even if he allows you to change the theme or whatever you want. He would have to actually send you the vbulletin code for it to be distribution or conveyance, which would be illegal by the way, since vbulletin isn't GPL.

[andrea_r]

WPMU only creates new blogs in the database. They are *virtual*. If you looked on the file system, there's only a few specific things that would tell you it was WPMU and not single WP.

And yes, you can absolutely have one WPMU install with one theme and a hundred million blogs.

By your own logic, there would be extra copies of plugins too. The only unique part of each blog lives in the database (and any uploaded files, but that's beside the point).

So, if on WPMU we don't have one theme, in use by all, what do we have?

You completley missed my point. If 100 people choose theme 1, then that one theme is in use by all who have chosen that theme.

If the difference isn't that WPMU creates several blogs, each with unique data and unique themes, then what is it?

The difference is that WPMU creates several blogs, each with unique data. Full stop.

[Ryan]

For further clarification, the GPL no longer uses the term "distribution," as they've discovered that in some countries, the legal definition of distribution isn't the same as in the US. They now use the term convey, with the following definition:

To “convey” a work means any kind of propagation that enables other parties to make or receive copies. Mere interaction with a user through a computer network, with no transfer of a copy, is not conveying.

That pretty much stomps this debate on the head.

[chipbennett]

You still seem to be conflating WP/WPMU and vBulliten/WPMU.

WPMU is pretty much the same as WP, only that it allows you to create another blog using the same files, blut with its own database tables. wordpress.com uses WordPress MU.


Keep in mind, you can have a WPMU installation with only one theme available, or with 1000 themes available. A forum could theoretically allow users to choose which theme they'd like to see. Neither of these situations qualify as distribution. Also, you can allow people to register on your WP site as whatever user level you want, even giving them full access to the administrative interface if you so desire. This still doesn't count as distribution because they aren't receiving a copy of any GPL software, they're only using it.

People registering on my WP site cannot set up unique blogs that have individually determined themes.

Right now, we're using MySQL, but Jeff never actually distributed it to us. Technically, it wasn't even distributed to him unless he set up his own server.

Can we please get past the analogies that don't apply? I don't think anyone is arguing that Apache, PHP, MySQL, etc. are distributed just because more than one person uses the services resulting from that stack.

For further clarification, the GPL no longer uses the term "distribution," as they've discovered that in some countries, the legal definition of distribution isn't the same as in the US. They now use the term convey, with the following definition:

To “convey” a work means any kind of propagation that enables other parties to make or receive copies. Mere interaction with a user through a computer network, with no transfer of a copy, is not conveying.

When you sign up for a blog on someone's WPMU (or wordpress.com), you aren't receiving a copy.

Is that new to the GPL v3? Is v3 what WP is licensed under? If so, then I agree that WPMU doesn't convey either WP or its plugins/themes.

If Jeff gives you the admin info for wptavern.com/forum, he isn't distributing anything to you, even if he allows you to change the theme or whatever you want. He would have to actually send you the vbulletin code for it to be distribution or conveyance, which would be illegal by the way, since vbulletin isn't GPL.

But, again, this scenario is vastly different from the WPMU scenario. Again, in the scenario you described, one blog exists, using one theme - which certainly is not the case with WPMU, in which there are many blogs, using potentially many themes individually.

[chipbennett]

WPMU only creates new blogs in the database. They are *virtual*. If you looked on the file system, there's only a few specific things that would tell you it was WPMU and not single WP.

And yes, you can absolutely have one WPMU install with one theme and a hundred million blogs.

By your own logic, there would be extra copies of plugins too. The only unique part of each blog lives in the database (and any uploaded files, but that's beside the point).

I don't use my WP.com profile enough to know the answer to this question: can WP.com users pick and choose which plugins to use, or must they use the ones chosen/installed by the Admin?

You completley missed my point. If 100 people choose theme 1, then that one theme is in use by all who have chosen that theme.

The difference is that WPMU creates several blogs, each with unique data. Full stop.

So all WPMU blogs use the same theme?

No, of course not. So, no, not "full stop."

[chipbennett]

That pretty much stomps this debate on the head.

I would assume so, with respect to conveyance of themes.

Although, there is one more wrench: what copy, exactly, of a theme's CSS fille is a user modifying when using the CSS editor?

If that CSS file is a unique copy, made available to to the user for unique modification, then is that theme file not conveyed to that user?

[hallsofmontezuma]

What CSS editor would that be?

They purposely didn't include one in WPMU, since everyone is using the same set of theme files, as we've discussed in this thread, and wordpress.com has a paid feature to allow adding CSS to the theme you're using.


Whether it's Jeff using MySQL, Apache, and whatever Linux, or someone signing up for wordpress.com or any WordPress MU blog, no software is being distributed, only used.
When you sign up for wordpress.com, you use MySQL, use Apache, use Linux, and use the WordPress core files, and use one of the installed themes. When Jeff signed up for his shared hosting account, he uses Apache, he uses Linux, he uses MySQL. None of these things have been distributed/conveyed.


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"Convey" replaced "distribute" in version 3 of the GPL as a clarification, since they realized that the definition they were using for distribute was a U.S. legal definition of distribution, and was a little different than in some other countries. "Convey" is now used as a clarification.