One Peeved Off Theme Maker

[Brad]

I'm sure it's just me having a hard time reconciling that simply by hosting a GPL theme, you do not invoke the GPL because its not being "distributed" and therefore you can restrict its style sheet or throw ads on it.

Maybe this dumb country boy plain just don't get it and that's fine, so be it, but to the GPL layman like myself, I don't see much difference in you giving me a GPL theme to host myself or you offering to host the theme for me. That theme originated as a GPL theme and in the end both are being hosted. The only difference is, one is limited and one is not.

Regarding hosting and distribution: Do you think the music companies would mind if I host the top 10 billboard songs and let people listen to them online without downloading them? They probably wouldn't think that's distribution would they? ;-)

[Brad]

That line cracked me up. Is it GPL? I would like to use it some day.

I dunno tho - maybe my tinfoil hat is a little tight.

[chipbennett]

Yes, it would be a derivative work. But, the GPL is irrelevant here. The GPL is about the distribution of software.

Ah, but there's the problem, isn't it? I think a very strong argument can be made that a theme used on WPMU is, by definition, distributed. (One WP installation, many, many instances/uses of a given theme.)

I don't see a problem with Automattic making a little money here. This has nothing to do with premium themes developers, really. Automattic is not breaking the GPL. Premium theme developers are at best in some weird, murky, gray area. At worst, are breaking the GPL.

By why should Automattic ask premium theme authors to use one business model, while they themselves use the very business model that those theme developers would prefer to be using? How is that not a double standard?

[andrea_r]

That line cracked me up. Is it GPL? I would like to use it some day.

:D Knock yerself out.

[greenshady]

Ah, but there's the problem, isn't it? I think a very strong argument can be made that a theme used on WPMU is, by definition, distributed. (One WP installation, many, many instances/uses of a given theme.)

No, I wouldn't consider that a problem at all. Even if in some alternate universe we would call this distribution ;) , Automattic could still charge a fee for this.

By why should Automattic ask premium theme authors to use one business model, while they themselves use the very business model that those theme developers would prefer to be using? How is that not a double standard?

Sorry, you completely lost me here. I've never heard of anyone at Automattic asking theme authors to use a specific business model. I know people making a living off of WordPress in several different ways regardless of what anyone might've said.

No one has ever told me, "Justin, you must use this business model." I simply had a talk with a friend about how to build something off of GPL and still make money. The support model is what we came up with. But, I could've just sold the themes and still licensed them under the GPL. I could've used my themes and plugins to promote my freelance work.

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I really just feel like we're all pulling at straws here and trying to find fault with Automattic and the people at WordPress.org. Sure, these people and Matt make mistakes. They're all human.

But, shouln't we be looking more at how other people are hurting the community by not honoring the GPL than what Matt and co. did wrong this week (even though it is fun sometimes)?

[chipbennett]

I'm sure it's just me having a hard time reconciling that simply by hosting a GPL theme, you do not invoke the GPL because its not being "distributed" and therefore you can restrict its style sheet or throw ads on it.

To be fair, the GPL only applies to distribution. The GPL explicitly excludes use restrictions. I can take some GPL code (a theme, or whatever), and do whatever I want with it, up to the point that I give, sell, or transfer it to someone else. At that point, the GPL applies, and that transfer must comply with the terms of the GPL.

Maybe this dumb country boy plain just don't get it and that's fine, so be it, but to the GPL layman like myself, I don't see much difference in you giving me a GPL theme to host myself or you offering to host the theme for me. That theme originated as a GPL theme and in the end both are being hosted. The only difference is, one is limited and one is not.

See, I somewhat agree here. I don't see how WPMU isn't an example of distribution of the themes and plugins that are running under WPMU.

Regarding hosting and distribution: Do you think the music companies would mind if I host the top 10 billboard songs and let people listen to them online without downloading them? They probably wouldn't think that's distribution would they? ;-)

Interesting that you should make that very point, since at least one web site with just such a model was shut down - and rather harshly - by the RIAA last year.

[Brad]

Justin,

I mentioned earlier how appreciative I am of the work you and others like Ian do. Hybrid and Thematic are awesome.

It's my opinion though that premium theme authors are not hurting a thing. In fact, they have contributed a great deal to the community while being frowned upon by some. In recent months I have seen some themes from Theme Forest that remind me of high quality web sites you find featured at places like Best Web Gallery, CSS Mania, CSS remix, etc. Theme Forest and other premium theme authors are improving the WP community by stepping things up a notch in design, functionality and options. Features average WordPress users are looking for and who likely don't give a rip about GPL.

Joomla has a thriving premium themes (license restricted) market. Do you think they are all in the wrong as well?

But, shouln't we be looking more at how other people are hurting the community by not honoring the GPL than what Matt and co. did wrong this week (even though it is fun sometimes)?

[chipbennett]

No, I wouldn't consider that a problem at all. Even if in some alternate universe we would call this distribution ;) , Automattic could still charge a fee for this.

Why do you consider it only possibly in an "alternate universe" that WPMU represents distribution of WP themes and plugins? Remember the definition of distribution:

Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights… to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending

So, again, how is WPMU not distributing WP themes and plugins to WPMU users (i.e. "the public"), if not by transfer of ownership, then by "rental, lease, or lending"?

Sorry, you completely lost me here. I've never heard of anyone at Automattic asking theme authors to use a specific business model. I know people making a living off of WordPress in several different ways regardless of what anyone might've said.

Oh, come now; would you really deny that the standard line of argument from Matt et al to premium theme developers is, "give away the theme for free, and charge for support"?

No one has ever told me, "Justin, you must use this business model." I simply had a talk with a friend about how to build something off of GPL and still make money. The support model is what we came up with. But, I could've just sold the themes and still licensed them under the GPL. I could've used my themes and plugins to promote my freelance work.

That's great that the model works for you; I think theme developers should be able to profit from their work, should the market place value on that work such that it can profit.

I really just feel like we're all pulling at straws here and trying to find fault with Automattic and the people at WordPress.org. Sure, these people and Matt make mistakes. They're all human.

But, shouln't we be looking more at how other people are hurting the community by not honoring the GPL than what Matt and co. did wrong this week (even though it is fun sometimes)?

I probably come across as anti-Matt sometimes, though that's really not my intent.

I'm actually trying to be the voice for the middle ground. Where I mostly disagree with Matt is that he seems not to want to recognize that a middle ground can - much less, should - exist.

[Brad]

Chip,

I admittedly don't fully understand the GPL and really, I think very few do.

I guess what really sticks in my craw is this: I hear people say premium theme developers can carry on as usual doing what they want, nothing bad will come to them while at the same time they are treated and talked about like an unwanted stepchild.

To be fair, the GPL only applies to distribution. The GPL explicitly excludes use restrictions. I can take some GPL code (a theme, or whatever), and do whatever I want with it, up to the point that I give, sell, or transfer it to someone else. At that point, the GPL applies, and that transfer must comply with the terms of the GPL.



See, I somewhat agree here. I don't see how WPMU isn't an example of distribution of the themes and plugins that are running under WPMU.



Interesting that you should make that very point, since at least one web site with just such a model was shut down - and rather harshly - by the RIAA last year.

[chipbennett]

Chip,

I admittedly don't fully understand the GPL and really, I think very few do.

I guess what really sticks in my craw is this: I hear people say premium theme developers can carry on as usual doing what they want, nothing bad will come to them while at the same time they are treated and talked about like an unwanted stepchild.

There are some who have an inherent problem with premium theme developers; I'm certainly not in that camp.

I think that parts of a theme clearly are derivative works of WordPress, while at the same time other parts clearly are not. Both sides seem to be taking an all-or-nothing perspective, which I think has virtually no chance of leading anywhere constructive.

Premium theme developers aren't evil for wanting to make some money off of and to protect their intellectual property. Matt M. and Automattic aren't evil for wanting to protect the GPL of WordPress and to support the spirit of open-source freedoms.