CForms II removed from Repository.

[Jeffro]

I have not visited the CForms 2 post but my reply is based on the conversation taking place here. My expectation for plugins and themes to be released under GPL only applies to those who want or are hosted on one of the repositories. Outside of the repositories, their is very little in the way of expectations. If someone is maintaining a plugin on their own site and release updates through it with no repository middle man, what is one to do? Sure, you could argue about the plugin or various parts of it being GPL and then probably get into a big argument about this term called DERIVATIVE WORKS, but my feelings are that who cares what a plugin or theme author does outside of the repositories?

If you don't like what they are doing or how they are licensing or restricting their work, don't use it, don't support it, use something that is compliant with the GPL. If the CForms2 plugin author was violating the GPL according to the plugin repository masters, the plugin author should either change the way they are doing things or simple say to hell with the repository and do things on their own where they are free to do what they want.

[brandingdavid]

I am so sick of the support claim. Support only gives the original author more work. And you can't monetize support in a community like WordPress... too many other skilled individuals willing to give their time freely.

I bet most of you could rewrite a contact form plugin in a day.

The fact is that there has not been a good business model put forth regarding community efforts, and Automattic tries to destroy any models that do come up.

I think the GPL is eventually going to be the death of WordPress rather than its saving grace.

I have no doubt that in five years, systems like Habari will get more attention because businesses will have a clear method of monetization. Strong developers will realize that "if I make the plugins that the community wants, I don't have to work in an office slaving away for someone else's bottom line."

Show me a successfully monetized GPL theme or plugin *with proof that it is successful under that model* and I'll eat my words.

Don't pull out Revolution 2 though, as it is no longer "free to get, pay for support". It is "pay for support up front to get the download files and updates".

Also, it isn't a protected business model because again, I can buy a license, and put up a copy on all of my sites for people do download, thus negating a large portion of his sales.

Don't say that it wouldn't work, as I am a fairly trusted WP community member. I have no doubt that people would download it from me for free over paying a fee. The WP community is both cheap and greedy. Did you know there is warez/pirate versions of most paid themes and plugins on various Web Dev forums and even some on Torrents?

[hallsofmontezuma]

This is wrong on so many levels.

If you took every theme and made the foot link go to your site, the community would likely be aware of this and not use the themes from your site. Not to mention that people generally remove the footer links.

If someone starts selling the premium themes or plugins for cheaper (which I'm sure happens and they well within the rules of the license to do), while some people would buy the cheaper one, they would then be without updates, support, etc. I don't doubt that every commercial theme and plugin out there is offered somewhere for cheap or free. Every single one of my plugins has had people at various times copy the code and release it as their own. They never last, since their "version" won't have my updates, won't receive support, etc.

In general, plugin and theme authors aren't treated like crap, but there certainly is a vocal minority. Every software has its dissidents.

WordPress (Automattic) is well within its rights to demand themes and plugins to be GPL compatible. They didn't make this up, it's in the license. Refer to my previous post for the text, or feel free to go The GNU General Public License - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation (FSF)

Automattic is certainly not the only ones profiting. There are many companies and individuals offering pay themes, plugins, and services for WordPress. I'm one of them, along with several other members of this forum.

I appreciate that you want theme/plugin developers to be compensated, I can certainly understand that as a developer myself, and it's frustrating to have someone rip off my hard work, but that's just part of the license. If someone doesn't like it, they need to stop developing for GPL software.

WordPress isn't alone in this. There are many, many others. Look at Red Hat. Their entire business is based around providing support for their OS. Should they be irked that CentOS exists?

WordPress took the hard work that the B2 Evolution team did and repackaged it as their own software. When you install WordPress on your server, is there a link back to B2's site next to the wordpress.org link?

GPL is scary because it is a complete lack of control. If I took every GPL theme, replaced the footer link, and redistributed them all on a popular site like BloggingPro, I would earn tens of thousands of back links.

If Darren Rowse wanted to make an Ultimate theme pack and sell it for $10 a pop, do you doubt that people would buy it, making him tons of money? Some would even defend it saying that he took the time to put the pack together.

The issue is a lack of control. People put time, energy and work into developing something, and others abuse that fact. Why should someone put continued development into something without being able to ask for something in return, be it money, or a link, or at least respect from the community.

I think it is horrible how the WordPress community treats its theme makers and plugin authors and all of you that just "expect" them to release their stuff under GPL are so full of "crap".

This is one of those cases where everyone expects to have their cake and eat it too, and the only person profiting is Automattic. Ridiculous.

[Jeffro]

Well, I enjoyed the way in which the Shopp plugin is licensed under GPL but when you purchase the plugin, what you are really purchasing is the support key which is the only way of unlocking the plugin and granting it updates from the plugins own repository server. Seems to be working for him.

[davecoveney]

Well, legally they are actually required to release under GPL because the themes/plugins are extensions of WordPress.

You say this like it's true, but it's quite easy to argue the opposite.

WordPress, themes and its plugins are not released as compiled modules. The GPL v2 was really written for compiled code. Frankly it's the wrong license for the product and is going to lead to these kinds of arguments.

All you do in WordPress, really, is to tell it to call functions. Not to link (dynamically or otherwise) but to call. A call is not linking. I can make a call to a Google service using GPL code, and it can make a call back - that doesn't mean both sides have to be GPL.

What I noticed is that at some point Matt started talking about the 'spirit' of the GPL, rather than the wording. With good reason - the wording of the GPL, with regards to scripted languages and web services is inappropriate.

And 'spirit' unfortunately, isn't what the world is built on, no matter how much we'd like that to be the case.

[Jeffro]

By the way, some of the things I'm seeing discussed in this thread were already discussed in the GPL interview I did with Matt Mullenweg a few weeks ago. In it, he answered quite a number of questions regarding all of this mockery around the GPL but more importantly, issues surrounding the idea that Automattic is crushing every business model that developes around premium themes or plugins and the idea that Automattic is the only one to make money from WordPress.

Those two ideas are so far from the truth, it's funny.

[itsananderson]

Don't pull out Revolution 2 though, as it is no longer "free to get, pay for support". It is "pay for support up front to get the download files and updates".

Well, does this make it non-GPL? Brian has done quite well with the revolution themes and he still plays within the boundaries of the GPL license. You can charge for a theme or service and still have it be GPL.

Now, the business model that Brian adopted for a short time apparently didn't work out for him, and he had to go back to the original(ish) model, but that still doesn't show anything about whether GPL can work. Both models are GPL compliant.

[hallsofmontezuma]

E-Commerce and Shopp. You can argue that Revolution Two doesn't apply but it does. Sure you can find the theme all over for free, but apparently it's not hurting them too much. They are running a business with multiple employees.

Show me a successfully monetized GPL theme or plugin *with proof that it is successful under that model* and I'll eat my words.

[brandingdavid]

I've posted a short rant on Blogging Pro. :) Also, I bet you that people would download the Revolution 2 themes from Blogging Pro even if the themes had the footer links changed to Blogging Pro, and after having released more than half a dozen themes, I can say from experience that only around a third remove the footer links.

[Jeffro]

The funny thing about Brian Gardner though is that his audience basically demanded that he bring back the old Revolution themes albeit updated for WordPress 2.7 and people lined up in droves to purchase them.

I think what Jonathan Davis of the Shopp plugin has done is creative and seems to be working for him. Could the entire crux of the problem be a lack of creativity on the part of theme or plugin authors for coming up with a business model that also aligns themselves with the GPL?