Proposal for Core Compnents (Plugins)

[andreasnrb]

Otto I don't think my English is that bad. The sentences were a little crappy but you can understand them.
There was also different paragraphs that means changing subject. At least thats what I've been taught. I don't know the US practice. Red thread was just an attempt to translate a metaphor that means you can easily trace something from point a to point b.

You are still negative. Saying things are stupid and pointless is not a good way to discuss things. If you can't say anything constructive don't say anything at all. If you don't understand something then ask for clarification. Its common sense I think.

Heres a 2nd attempt adapted to recent talks
Is the only way forward to setup gatekeepers (the core plugin et al thing)? You can't see any other ways to improve the quality of the plugins in the repository which seems to be why you support the idea of core plugins? (At least based on your OneFineJay comment)

Personally I don't think core plugins will inspire higher code quality or security or anything in old or new plugins in the directory. Core plugins will only cause confusion and users will see core plugins as the only way to go. This seems to be the case already. Better dev docs etc could improve quality since the docs suck at the moment. Improving WP plugin management could also improve quality and the enduser experience.
The improvement of the directory is also a much better step to improve plugins than this weird undefined, without boundaries "core plugin" thing.

The idea of core plugins as its presented is bad.
Moving stuff out of core and into ordinary plugins is however a good thing.

[Otto]

Is the only way forward to setup gatekeepers (the core plugin et al thing)? You can't see any other ways to improve the quality of the plugins in the repository which seems to be why you support the idea of core plugins? (At least based on your OneFineJay comment)

I would not call them "gatekeepers", as such. Because, who's barring the gate?

Too often people don't understand how to behave in a community, and I find that these people get annoyed and think that they're being actively blocked when their ideas don't get heard/implemented/agreed with... This often isn't the case, and people should stop personalizing things so much.

So if I think your idea is crap, then I'll say so, but that's because I think the idea is crap. It has nothing to do with you. I don't know you. I probably never will. Why do people make words on a screen, written by people they'll never meet, mean so much to them? I've never understood it.

In this same sense, if somebody doesn't like my idea, well, I go do it myself and throw it out there. Sometimes it takes off, sometimes not. But I'm always open to the notion that my idea may not be the best one. So in that sense, while I'd like some of my ideas to become core plugins, I'm well aware that they might not. That doesn't stop me from putting them out there, and I'm not seeing it as a "me vs. them" thing if my plugins get overshadowed by something else that is more popular. And I certainly wouldn't feel that I'm being "blocked" by anybody.

Personally I don't think core plugins will inspire higher code quality or security or anything in old or new plugins in the directory.

The main idea, as I see it, is to foster collaboration among "add-ons" in general, which is something that pretty much does not exist at present. Doing this is easier for a widely used plugin than for a plugin nobody uses.

Admittedly, there is some sentiment leaning towards keeping core plugins confined to things that are closer to the core code than normal plugins, but in the long run I don't think that will last.

Core plugins will only cause confusion and users will see core plugins as the only way to go.

"Only" is a strong word. They might be the "best" way to go, but certainly will not be the "only" way.

The idea of core plugins as its presented is bad.

I disagree.

[chipbennett]

So if I think your idea is crap, then I'll say so, but that's because I think the idea is crap. It has nothing to do with you. I don't know you. I probably never will. Why do people make words on a screen, written by people they'll never meet, mean so much to them? I've never understood it.

Which is hilarious, coming from someone who just threatened (and probably used) the block-hammer on someone for being told an idea was foolish.

Good for me, but not for thee...

[chipbennett]

Getting Back On Topic

Considering that:

a) the powers-that-be apparently have a proposal in the works, that will be presented to the community for feedback, and
b) a contribution such as this one, at this time, is both apparently unwanted and viewed as potentially contrarian,

I have decided that, for the time being, I am not going to pursue this proposal any further. I don't want any such effort to be viewed as contrarian, as that is the furthest thing from my intent.

At the appropriate time - i.e. when the "official" proposal is presented, I will incorporate parts of this thread into a response to solicited feedback.

I would still appreciate any feedback that you would like to give, so that, at the appropriate time, it can be incorporated into a response to the "official" proposal for core plugins.

[dancole]

a) the powers-that-be apparently have a proposal in the works, that will be presented to the community for feedback, and
b) a contribution such as this one, at this time, is both apparently unwanted and viewed as potentially contrarian,

IMHO, the best way to get into the development of WordPress is to start out in small steps. Start by listening in on all the resources that the developers use. Then after you get a feel for their ways, start by joining smaller topics that you can specialize in and work your way up.

In the case of Core Plugins, a committee has been formed and is working out what to propose as the best plan of attack. It may be that things are being discussed off the record within this committee, but are being done so on a pre-proposal status.

Again IMHO, it may be best to keep the planners in a small committee that is kinda closed to outside noise. It would be distracting to have people come in randomly and voice their concerns or opinions, even if they were valid or with the best intentions. Having a free-for-all discussion is less productive.

If you want to join the Core Plugin Committee you should have done so from the beginning. Which, I know eliminates people who didn't hear about it soon enough or joined in too late. Everyone is free to join in, but they need to do so when volunteers are being ask for. These tasks usually follow this form:

1. start out as ideas
2. move on to official proposals
3. get blessed (closely tied with #2)
4. get developed
5. get implemented
6. get reviewed

I'm afraid that working outside of the system in public may mislead people. Sometimes it's just not clear to onlookers what is official and what is someone's opinion. The core developers would love more contributors, but things have to be done carefully, because it's easy for the average WordPress user to think the sky is falling.

I think things will work out in the end. Chip, I think you can still bring up your concerns and ideas, but I would do so after the Dev. IRC Chat on Thursday and do so as a modification to what was proposed. Making it clear that your modifications are just your ideas wouldn't hurt either.

I believe this Core Plugin idea was a miss-step by the developers working on it.[1] A public announcement would have been great, even if it was just Matt saying: "Were going to be working on a proposal of an idea about plugins that can be developed by anyone and are done so in conjunction with the development of WordPress. We'll get back to you when we get our thought in place."

[1] I don't think anyone saw the core plugin idea as something that would make the sky fall before an official plan was even proposed.

(I hope this doesn't sound like I'm attacking Chip or anyone else.)

[dancole]

Is the only way forward to setup gatekeepers (the core plugin et al thing)? You can't see any other ways to improve the quality of the plugins in the repository which seems to be why you support the idea of core plugins? (At least based on your OneFineJay comment)

I wouldn't call them gatekeepers, but editors or moderators. There are some great book authors in the world and they don't need a "gatekeeper" to block them from publishing their books, but in actuality, editors are good for the final product and are truly there to help. They add another set of eyes to catch bug, typos, and other mistakes.

Commit access is give to you based on your authority. Doing what's good for the community increases your authority and being careless decreases it. Giving unknown people commit access creates an unknown... we don't know what your going to do. It's about trust.

I like the idea of having multiple developer plugins and who better to manage that then the WordPress project. (which doesn't necessarily mean core developers) Finding other authors independently is harder and is more likely to create "author" greed, IMHO. (If you know what I mean... I don't feel like explaining it.)

[andreasnrb]

Why do people make words on a screen, written by people they'll never meet, mean so much to them? I've never understood it.

Its common courtesy to treat people with respect. Online and offline. So what if you don't understand it. Its just the way it is. I don't take it personally, I just think disrespectful behavior cripples discussions and causes hostility and antagonism.

The main idea, as I see it, is to foster collaboration among "add-ons" in general, which is something that pretty much does not exist at present. Doing this is easier for a widely used plugin than for a plugin nobody uses.

Yes that much I get also. But I don't think its necessary to utilize certain naming schemes etc to accomplish this. Everyone seems to be on board on the collaboration thing. Its the core plugin distinction that is causing all the problems.
There are much better ideas out there I think.

Commit access is give to you based on your authority. Doing what's good for the community increases your authority and being careless decreases it. Giving unknown people commit access creates an unknown... we don't know what your going to do. It's about trust.

I didn't mean gatekeepers as in commit access givers. I see the whole core plugin thing as a gatekeeper thing. Keep the unworthy plugin authors away etc.
Core plugins aint necesarry for group development of plugins neither are core devs. Make it easy to fork and experiment so people can learn for themselves etc.
I like how its handle on GitHub. I've suggested GitHub and RoR project as inspiration sources for plugin directory reformation in a dev chat got snarky reply back if I recall correctly.

Start by listening in on all the resources that the developers use.

Its kind of hard to do when the discussions takes place on WordCamps =). Which seems to be the case regarding core plugins as can be seen by my tries to gain knowledge on the subject. Think even Jane said so. I've never even been to a WordCamp hard to take part then =).
Also there are so many different places to listen to and if you're not awake you cant participate either. Which is sometimes the case for me and dev chats.

Again IMHO, it may be best to keep the planners in a small committee that is kinda closed to outside noise. It would be distracting to have people come in randomly and voice their concerns or opinions, even if they were valid or with the best intentions.

So only giving certain people the right to write in threads/forums is not something that can be done? There is also a problem with having groups that always hang together. Groupthinking can occur. You can learn about it on wikipedia if you havent taken group psychology classes. Link is in the bottom.

Having a free-for-all discussion is less productive.

No one has suggested that really. We just want to know whats going on =).

If you want to join the Core Plugin Committee you should have done so from the beginning. Which, I know eliminates people who didn't hear about it soon enough or joined in too late.

When was this formed and where? Was it a WordCamp?

[1] I don't think anyone saw the core plugin idea as something that would make the sky fall before an official plan was even proposed.

The reaction the core plugin idea caused would have been obvious had they analyzed it. If you read on WikiPedia you can see that many of the signs of groupthinking is exhibited by WordPress "organization" and in its reaction to public critizism. The whole privacy thing for example and now core plugins. There are probably more examples to be found. Someone mention some debacle concerning K2 but I don't know anything about it.

Just be aware of what it is so countermessures can be taken.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

[Ryan]

so back to the GPL ....

[andreasnrb]

so back to the GPL ....

No no. Don't start that fire again we don't need more Chip VS Otto wars.

[Otto]

Yes that much I get also. But I don't think its necessary to utilize certain naming schemes etc to accomplish this. Everyone seems to be on board on the collaboration thing. Its the core plugin distinction that is causing all the problems.

I disagree. You have to give people a reason to work with others. I mean, it's not like they're getting paid here. Giving these sort of collaborative efforts a distinctive place in the system provides an incentive for people to contribute to them.

I didn't mean gatekeepers as in commit access givers. I see the whole core plugin thing as a gatekeeper thing. Keep the unworthy plugin authors away etc.

Huh? Who said anything about keeping anybody away from contributing?

You do know that anybody, literally anybody, can contribute code to the WordPress core itself. All you have to do is submit your code to trac and convince one of the core committers that it's good enough to include. Why would a collaborative plugin be any different? Anybody can contribute code and then convince the plugin committers that it's worth including.

Core plugins aint necesarry for group development of plugins neither are core devs. Make it easy to fork and experiment so people can learn for themselves etc.

People who only teach themselves have a fool for a student. ;)

I happen to think that core plugins, or something functionally equivalent to them, are indeed necessary to create a proper environment for collaborative plugins. Otherwise your efforts to create a collaborative environment would fail.

I like how its handle on GitHub. I've suggested GitHub and RoR project as inspiration sources for plugin directory reformation in a dev chat got snarky reply back if I recall correctly.

GitHub is just a public repository. Same as Sourceforge or Google Code. None of these address the problem. Heck, almost every project I see on any of these repos have one or at most two developers. 95% of them are "dead", basically.

Simply making a repo doesn't make people contribute to it.

Its kind of hard to do when the discussions takes place on WordCamps =). Which seems to be the case regarding core plugins as can be seen by my tries to gain knowledge on the subject. Think even Jane said so. I've never even been to a WordCamp hard to take part then =).

I have not been to a WordCamp either.

The reaction the core plugin idea caused would have been obvious had they analyzed it.

The reaction was obvious, but not because of why you think. The negative reaction mostly comes from people who monetize WordPress and who also, for whatever reason, refuse to participate in the actual process of WordPress development.

"Groupthink" has nothing to do with it, and is a simplistic view of the actual problem.