Proposal for Core Compnents (Plugins)

[chipbennett]

Actually, I'm not sure I like most of your proposal now Chip. Adding an extra menu in just for those plugins seems kinda pointless. They're just plugins, they're no different to any other plugins and therefore shouldn't be treated any differently when running inside WordPress.

Again, yes, they're different. Core Components are major functionality only.

There is a difference between say, MU (or BuddyPress, or bbPress) and a search widget.

Just because they hook into core in the same way doesn't mean that, functionally, they are the same. They're not.

I think what you are suggesting is basically including ALL of those plugins into the core download. That's the exact opposite of what the current intention is. They're trying to move stuff from core into plugins and creating officially support plugins.

I'm fine with modifying the proposal in that regard. The ease of inline installation precludes the need to include all Core Components in the default download. I love your WPQI suggestion.

Thos plugins may be added via code which is in the "plugins" folder, but since they have their own administration setup then they're no different from being included in core itself (coz they are). You could just as easily shove the code into the wp-includes folder and load them via a checkbox in one of the settings pages and it would have the same effect.

So your proposal is actually to add a whole bunch of extra functionality into core. That's never going to get any traction since that's the opposite of what the majority want. In fact I'd be quite happy if massive chunks of core were flicked out into plugins, like the entire admin panel, gallery system, etc. (which would probably leave us with something resembling BackPress). That's basically the total opposite of what you are proposing.

No, that's really not the gist of what I'm proposing.

Consider what's coming in the future for WordPress: integration of MU (coming in 3.0), a bbPress plugin, possible (likely?) BuddyPress integration.

These are all functionality that fundamentally alter the way a blog platform is used. These are all functionality that deserve attention from the core devs, for tight integration with core. These are all functionality that deserve to be treated as more than mere plugins.

Also, wouldn't it be wise to develop a proper UI and infrastructure for such functionality now? The Manage Plugins UI is pretty crowded and busy, and is really not the ideal place to try to manage such major functionality components.

[chipbennett]

Edited the proposal.

Edit #1:

1. Added "Background" section.
2. Removed statement that Core Components would be installed, but not enabled, by default. Added statement that Core Components would be installed from Manage Components screen.

[Ryan]

There is a difference between say, MU (or BuddyPress, or bbPress) and a search widget.

Mu is a bit different since it's not plugin related. A search widget is a small plugin, bbPress would be a larger plugin. I still think of them as plugins though.

These are all functionality that fundamentally alter the way a blog platform is used. These are all functionality that deserve attention from the core devs, for tight integration with core. These are all functionality that deserve to be treated as more than mere plugins.

They're still plugins though. I don't think it's a good idea to create a different interface to load things which are literally just plugins.

Also, wouldn't it be wise to develop a proper UI and infrastructure for such functionality now? The Manage Plugins UI is pretty crowded and busy, and is really not the ideal place to try to manage such major functionality components.

I didn't think the plugins UI was crowded.

Even my local install which probably has over 20 plugins sitting in it doesn't look particularly crowded to me.

[Otto]

I read the draft proposal, and I can find nothing I like about it.

Basically, a core component has no advantages over a plugin except that you're wanting it to have a special screen/place and to be bundled in the core download.

1. We don't want things bundled in the core download. Quite the opposite in fact, we'd prefer to have people download the pieces they need only.

2. Your notion of "component" is really no different than that of a "plugin". You speak about "tightly integrated" as if there's any real difference between core code and plugin code. There is no such distinction, a plugin can do anything core code can do. It's all just code. Your talk about "integration" indeed misses the whole direction WordPress has been moving, towards a much more loosely integrated system, to allow individual pieces to be added/removed on an as needed basis. The core is a big hunk of monolithic code, we're trying to de-integrate these pieces, not add more to them.

3. "Major" functionality can be in a plugin just as easily as it can be anywhere else, you're drawing distinctions that do not actually exist in this respect.

Basically, I just see no merit to your proposal. Several things in it seem to be way off the track that we're headed. In some ways, it's a complete reversal of where I see WP heading in the future.

[chipbennett]

Mu is a bit different since it's not plugin related. A search widget is a small plugin, bbPress would be a larger plugin. I still think of them as plugins though.

They're still plugins though. I don't think it's a good idea to create a different interface to load things which are literally just plugins.

So themes - which are really just plugins - should not have their own UI? They should just be listed on Manage Plugins?

I didn't think the plugins UI was crowded.

Even my local install which probably has over 20 plugins sitting in it doesn't look particularly crowded to me.

To each his own, I suppose - but I don't find the Manage Plugins UI to be particularly... I don't know... efficient? Asthetic?

It just doesn't seem (to me) to be the best place to manage such major functionality.

[chipbennett]

I read the draft proposal, and I can find nothing I like about it.

It's been edited to address your major concern. To wit:

Basically, a core component has no advantages over a plugin except that you're wanting it to have a special screen/place and to be bundled in the core download.

1. We don't want things bundled in the core download. Quite the opposite in fact, we'd prefer to have people download the pieces they need only.

Core Components are installed inline, from the Manage Components screen. Nothing is bundled by default.

2. Your notion of "component" is really no different than that of a "plugin". You speak about "tightly integrated" as if there's any real difference between core code and plugin code. There is no such distinction, a plugin can do anything core code can do. It's all just code.

3. "Major" functionality can be in a plugin just as easily as it can be anywhere else, you're drawing distinctions that do not actually exist.

Basically, I just see no merit to your proposal. Several things in it seem to be way off the track that we're headed. In some ways, it's a complete reversal of where I see WP heading in the future.

So, you are equally opposed to the direction being taken with respect to "Core Plugins", as well?

[Ryan]

So themes - which are really just plugins - should not have their own UI? They should just be listed on Manage Plugins?

Themes are actually slightly different. So they do need to have a separate UI.

You always need to have a theme loaded, whereas you don't need to have any plugins loaded.

Actually, I guess you could have no theme loading, but then you would just get a blank page (or an error probably).

To each his own, I suppose - but I don't find the Manage Plugins UI to be particularly... I don't know... efficient? Asthetic?

What do you think needs changed?

It just doesn't seem (to me) to be the best place to manage such major functionality.

But how do you define the difference between something which is major and something which is not? What happens when it's on the border-line? At the moment it's pretty clear. Themes are themes. Plugins are plugins. Plugins can unhook large chunks of themes (the whole thing in some cases), but they're still modifying the theme as opposed to actually being the theme. Your components wouldn't be any different from a plugin at all. They're literally the same thing.

[chipbennett]

I read the draft proposal, and I can find nothing I like about it.

Nothing? At all? Really?

So, you don't like the suggestion that Core Components be inherently designed to be extensible, in order to help ensure and facilitate the third-party plugin developer space?

You don't like the suggestion that Core Components focus on major functionality, rather than whatever is the whim of (whomever)?

[Ryan]

So, you don't like the suggestion that Core Components be inherently designed to be extensible, in order to help ensure and facilitate the third-party plugin developer space?

You don't like the suggestion that Core Components focus on major functionality, rather than whatever is the whim of (whomever)?

I'm sure Otto was referring to the major points of your proposal, ie: the changes from what is already being suggested. Those examples you gave are obviously good things.

[Ryan]

This debate looks like it's turning into one of those really long topics we seem to have popping up here on the Tavern so often.

Perhaps we should spice it up a bit by bringing the GPL into it?

Maybe we should roll Thesis into core?

tongue firmly in cheek