Proposal for Core Compnents (Plugins)

[chipbennett]

Sorry Ryan, I didn't ignore your post, it must have been posted while I was writing my reply.

If you look at the post he's referencing that quote from, and go all the way to the bottom, you'll see "For the sake of transparency, I’ll also post this email on wpdevel so people know what you’re tasked with doing." That entire grey quote box is the E-Mail that was sent to our group to get us started on outlining what was needed for core plugins. That means that "If you guys can brainstorm a little around that… you guessed it: write up what you propose and we’ll get community feedback" was written to us.

I agree that it could have been more clear that the large quote was an E-Mail sent to the team. However, I think if you read the entire post it does make sense. The misunderstanding explains the confusion though.

But then, that email was published on wpdevel.wordpress.com.

Would one then not expect and anticipate feedback from the community? Or, if one is soliciting such proposals from the developers, are proposals from the user community not welcome?

The reaction would seem to justify the opinion of some that user-community input isn't really wanted or welcome.

Regardless of whether my proposal gets any traction or not, there are underlying issues with Core Plugins:

Users are confused about what they are, how they will work, and how they will be different from normal plugins.
Plugin developers are concerned that the way Core Plugins will be implemented will stifle competition and have an adverse impact on their livelihood

The entire process surrounding Core Plugins, from inception, to definition, to implementation, has been closed. Those of us on the outside of the process see what appears to be a half-baked idea that is being rushed forward without any consideration either for what the user or third-party developer communities want, or for what the unintended consequences will be.

I'm glad to see your team starting an open discussion regarding the infrastructure of Core Plugins - but IMHO, that discussion is premature, when the concept of what exactly "Core Plugins" will be has yet to be finalized.

(Even reading Matt's reply to OneFineJay's "Shackling a Free Market" post, I get the sense that this whole process is "throw something against the wall and see what sticks".)

Further, the responses here (and elsewhere) have just confirmed that "the ship has sailed". Core Plugins are happening - even if we don't really know what they are.

Again, that's why I'm proposing something different - for consideration by the user, core, and third-party dev communities. I'm accepting that "something" is moving forward - I just want to take some time to mold that "something" into an idea that is supported by all involved.

Instead, it appears to be, "Damn the torpedoes. Full speed ahead!"

[chipbennett]

To be honest, I'm basing some of my comments in here on what I've read from others, so it's entirely possible I've screwed a few things up by not checking my sources properly.

I'm 100% certain Chip isn't trying to be rude though, he just has an abrupt way of wording things.

Indeed, I did my best to remove any rudeness.

[chipbennett]

I've now perused wpdevel.wordpress.com AND the IRC logs for wordpress-core-plugins.

Interestingly, both of these resources indicate that they are not the place for discussion of user-community concerns.

From Aaron's post on wpdevel:

Please remember though that we aren’t discussing what core plugins should be called, whether or not they’re a good idea, how plugins will become core plugins, or whether my mom’s a core plugin.

And from the IRC logs:

• Jeffro darn, I probably missed the conversation around the 'free market' arguments.
• <A href="https://irclogs.wordpress.org/chanlog.php?channel=wordpress-core-plugins&day=2010-01-11#m347">filosofo Jeffro, no it hasn't come up here
• <A href="https://irclogs.wordpress.org/chanlog.php?channel=wordpress-core-plugins&day=2010-01-11#m349">PeteMall Jeffro: thats beyond the scope
• <A href="https://irclogs.wordpress.org/chanlog.php?channel=wordpress-core-plugins&day=2010-01-11#m351">AaronCampbell Jeffro: that's not really for here

So, where is this "open" discussion? Where are user (and third-party developer) concerns being discussed, considered, and addressed?

[Ryan]

I've been pondering this a bit more, and decided that "core components" is a bad name. They're plugins, they're no different than any other plugins except that they receive a little more attention and therefore shouldn't be give a different title, ie: "components" instead of "plugins.

So I'd prefer "core plugins" to "core components". I'm not sure I like "core plugins" either, but I guess none of the names really work very well so we're probably stuck with it and it was apparently the most popular choice according to the poll.

[andreasnrb]

Ryan Chip is proposing something totally different than what the black box has decided.
He is trying to discuss a new approach to the whole mess.

[chipbennett]

Ryan Chip is proposing something totally different than what the black box has decided.
He is trying to discuss a new approach to the whole mess.

Exactly.

I think I'm going to work on that "Background" section of the propsal, for clarity.

[Ryan]

Oh crap. I wrote a lengthy post and somehow it got wiped.

Here's a bulleted summary:

• There are multiple solutions to the same problem
• Whoever is making the decisions is doing it for the good of the community
• I agree with a large proportion of what Chip says (but not all)
• Jane misinterpreted Chip. I'm sure she wasn't trying to be mean. Play nice children :)
• This issue will sort itself out. "Core plugins" are coming. We just need to find out/work out the finer details.

[Ryan]

Ryan Chip is proposing something totally different than what the black box has decided.
He is trying to discuss a new approach to the whole mess.

Yeah, but when it comes down to it, they're still plugins.

I already have enough trouble convincing people that a theme and a plugin are pretty the same thing as it is let alone having to explain that a plugin is exactly the same as a "core component".

[Ryan]

Actually, I'm not sure I like most of your proposal now Chip. Adding an extra menu in just for those plugins seems kinda pointless. They're just plugins, they're no different to any other plugins and therefore shouldn't be treated any differently when running inside WordPress.

I think what you are suggesting is basically including ALL of those plugins into the core download. That's the exact opposite of what the current intention is. They're trying to move stuff from core into plugins and creating officially support plugins.

Thos plugins may be added via code which is in the "plugins" folder, but since they have their own administration setup then they're no different from being included in core itself (coz they are). You could just as easily shove the code into the wp-includes folder and load them via a checkbox in one of the settings pages and it would have the same effect.

So your proposal is actually to add a whole bunch of extra functionality into core. That's never going to get any traction since that's the opposite of what the majority want. In fact I'd be quite happy if massive chunks of core were flicked out into plugins, like the entire admin panel, gallery system, etc. (which would probably leave us with something resembling BackPress). That's basically the total opposite of what you are proposing.

[Ryan]

Slightly off-topic: Here's an interesting blog post by Andrew Rickmann discussing what the bare minimum for a content management system is:
http://www.arickmann.co.uk/web-publishing-bare-minimum/

If you look in the comments you will see where I got the idea of removing the entire admin panel into a plugin.

EDIT: I've made a new thread about this topic ... What the hell is BackPress?